To view graphic version of this page, refresh this page (F5)

Skip to page body
  • go to google translator
  • contact us

July 21, 2003

July 21, 2003

SAN FRANCISCO
PLANNING COMMISSION

Meeting Minutes

Commission Chambers - Room 416
(Overflow in Room 421)
City Hall, 1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place

Monday, July 21, 2003
3:00 PM

COMMISSIONERS PRESENT: Michael J. Antonini, Shelley Bradford Bell, Kevin Hughes, Lisa Feldstein, William L. Lee

COMMISSIONERS ABSENT: Edgar E. Boyd and Sue Lee

THE MEETING WAS CALLED TO ORDER BY PRESIDENT BRADFORD BELL AT 3:20 p.m.

STAFF IN ATTENDANCE: Gerald Green - Director; Larry Badiner - Zoning Administrator; Susan Cleveland-Knowles - Deputy City Attorney; Amit Ghosh; David Alumbagh; Teresa Ojeda; Nora Priego - Transcription Secretary; Linda Avery - Commission Secretary

    A. SPECIAL CALENDAR

2000.465M (T. OJEDA: (415) 558-6251)

      HOUSING ELEMENT OF THE GENERAL PLAN - Continued public hearing on the proposed update and amendments to the General Plan put forth in the Housing Element Final Draft for Public Review released February 10, 2003. Proposed revisions will update and amend the Residence Element adopted in 1990 and include an assessment of housing needs, new policies to increase housing production such as higher residential densities along appropriate transit corridors and downtown neighborhoods; encouragement of housing development in neighborhood commercial districts; reconsideration of residential parking requirements; and policies supporting construction of new family housing. The Housing Element Final Draft for Public Review incorporated modifications based on comments and other feedback received by the Planning Department on the first draft published in August 2002.

      Preliminary Recommendation: No Action Requested.

      (First Public hearing held on May 1, 2003; continued to second public hearing held on June 5, 2003.)

          (Continued from Regular Meeting of June 12, 2003)

      SPEAKER(S):

      Dave Bishol - Westwood Highlands Organization

      - He submitted a letter from the West of Twin Peaks who is against the proposed Housing Element.

      - This document is fictitious.

      - He asked the Commission to reject this document.

      John Alley

      - He lives in an SRO hotel.

      - He asked the Commission to pass this Housing Element because people need affordable housing.

      John Lucas

      - He lives in an SRO hotel.

      - He hopes that the Commission will pass the Housing Element.

      Phillip Melton

      - He lives in an SRO hotel.

      - His life is continually threatened because of his living conditions.

      - He has been turned down for loans to purchase a house.

      Alfonso Texador

      - He cannot afford the rent in a tiny room where he lives.

      - The situation is intolerable.

      Jessie Turner

      - He is homeless right now.

      - He hopes that the Commission will approve this Housing Element.

      Natalie Woods

      - She hopes that the Commission will approve this Housing Element.

      Alfonso Moore

      - He is barely making it with the income he receives.

      - People need clean environments where they can live.

      - Locations for affordable housing need to be looked at.

      Carol Warmsley

      - She has been homeless and has lived in SRO hotels.

      - It is hard to get by on very little money.

      - Affordable housing is a blessing.

      - People are homeless for different reasons yet most of them live this way because housing is not affordable.

      Francisco Centurion - Russian Hill Neighbors

      - He thinks that there are a lot of things that are too loose. Until they are resolved there is no housing element.

      - One of the issues is the section on affordable housing.

      - He is concerned about the transit corridors (Van Ness, Geary, Mission, etc).

      - There are transit corridors that have not been included and they would make a great difference.

      - He would like to know the definition of transit corridors and which ones will be included.

      Roger (did not state last name)

      - He has lived in an SRO hotel for many years.

      - His rent has not changed for a long time.

      - He has gone through a lot of turmoil at the SRO hotel where he lives.

      Eferina Niarcines

      - She would like to know more about housing since his situation is getting more difficult.

      - She will have to move out from where she lives.

      - She hopes the Commission will include affordable housing in this Housing Element.

      Remedios Baltica

      - She is concerned with affordable housing.

      Judy Berkowitz - Coalition for Neighborhoods

      - There are people that are not speaking on the housing element.

      - She would like people to stick to the subject and the hearing would move along more smoothly.

      Maria Sousa - Richmond District Association

      - She thanked the Commissioners for taking a close look at the draft.

      - The actual policy languages have not really changed.

      - The word affordable has not been included in the Housing Element.

      - This draft with Commissioners comments was not available until Thursday afternoon.

      - Copies were not available at the library either.

      - She hopes that the Commission will allow for further public review.

      Barbara Austin

      - She lives in the Richmond District.

      - It is hard to get through.

      - How does one solve the housing shortage and meet the needs of people.

      - She asked the Commission not to close public comment.

      D. Allen - Sixth Street Agenda

      - The real focus is on the living conditions of many people who cannot afford a decent place to live.

      - By approving and passing the Housing Element it will encourage the construction of affordable housing.

      Deforest Woods

      - He lives in an SRO hotel.

      - He is thankful that he has a roof. To have your own key means a lot to him.

      - More affordable housing is important for people who want to improve their lives.

      Penelope Clark

      - There seems to be missing the ratio of new housing and new office development.

      - When there are a lot of new jobs, housing goes through the roof.

      - It is important to consider new office space, which will demand new housing.

      - Housing at 8th and Market would be a great location.

      Sharlot Mac

      - How can the Commission and the Department run the Housing Element without funds and the budget constraints?

      - She suggests that the full weight of this department be to develop the South East Sector.

      - The neighborhoods are a stable element of San Francisco.

      Bernie Choden - San Francisco Tomorrow

      - He believes that this draft still is a document with major shortcomings. While the Commission soon will probably approve the Housing Element, he suggests, at least, that there be stronger, clearer enforceable policies in these subjects of concern:

      - Establish a central authority for facilitating affordable housing, especially for larger households.

      - Provide adequate capital budgeting for increased housing density especially with regard to available resources.

      - Provide neighborhood holing capacity analysis in devising density.

      - Provide mitigations for reduced residential parking.

      Ellis McDonald

      - People will fill the streets to show how important it is to have affordable housing.

      Rex Swaisney

      - There are some areas that he would like to address: instead of monitoring rehabs, take action on rehabs. There are a lot of housing units that need rehabilitation.

      - It is important to have monitoring so that if there is a plan some action could be taken.

      Grace Calagos

      - There is a coalition to amend and adopt the housing element.

      - There is a failure to address affordable family housing.

      Russel Burman - Mobile Outreach Support Team

      - The plan really needs to respond to people who truly need affordable housing.

      - There are people who are homeless and are interested in employment and a decent place to live.

      Cyndy Mendoza - Mission Hiring Hall - SOMA

      - She urges the Commission to encourage development for affordable housing and to adopt the Housing Element now.

      - The lack of stable housing negatively impacts local employment.

      Christopher Peterson

      - He encourages development in all transit corridors.

      - The Commission needs to look at requiring transit impact fees, require in lieu fees, etc.

      Jennifer Chow Green

      - The housing element does not really define what a transit corridor is.

      - The changes proposed in the housing element without funding will lead to more problems

      Eileen Bogan - SPEAK

      - Many people have not been able to review the Commissioner's comments.

      - The concept of transit corridors is deeply flawed in the Housing Element.

      - Should capacity in MUNI be increased?

      Kim Koumbs

      - He cannot afford to live in this City anymore.

      Eia Peno

      - She hopes that the Housing Element will be adopted.

      Alisha Rochell - Visitation Valley

      - She would like to have the Commission approve the Housing Element plan.

      - She was born and raised in San Francisco and does not want to move away.

      Valerie Capeheart

      - Affordable housing keeps being delayed and delayed.

      - High-rises for rich people will be trying to bring too many people into San Francisco.

      Timothy Jones

      - He lives in an SRO hotel.

      - It is difficult for people to live in these hotels because they are scared.

      Scott Ferguson

      - He was homeless for 15 years and is now lucky to live in a unit.

      - Low-income housing should be located throughout the city.

      Elsa Gualive - PODER

      - She lives in the Mission District.

      - She recommends changing the implementation policy because there should be a larger percentage of family units. This should be changed and passed.

      Vicente (did not state last name)

      - He is a student and is having a hard time because his father makes less than average and cannot afford to send him to school.

      - A person needs to make at least $37.37 an hour to be able to pay for affordable housing.

      - He hopes that the Commission will develop zoning laws to allow affordable housing for families.

      Elie Walieb

      - Most of the people she grew up with live in Oakland or Richmond because they cannot afford to live in this city anymore.

      - She recommends that the Commission change the implementation because affordable housing is needed for low-income families.

      Evelyn Ruiz

      - If she didn't live where she lives, she would not be able to pay the rent because her father is on disability and her and her mother cannot afford to pay the rent.

      - A worker needs to make more than $37.00 an hour to pay for rent for at least two bedrooms.

      - She demands that housing be accessible to families who are low income.

      Hiroshi Fukuda

      - He is here to speak for many San Franciscans who could not come to the hearing.

      - There are people who are apathetic about this and do not understand what is going on.

      - This document will affect their lives for the next few centuries.

      - There are too many things he would like to comment about the Housing Element but there is little time.

      - A Housing Element is great for the rich and wealthy.

      - San Francisco has become a City for the very poor or the very rich.

      - The Housing Element does not provide for moderate-income citizens to remain in San Francisco.

      Kyle Fiore

      - She supports the Housing Element.

      - The Housing Element does mention the need for housing.

      - She encourages the development for two and three bedroom housing.

      Richard Nichols - Mission Agenda

      - There are a lot of unfortunate people who cannot afford a nice, decent place to live.

      - Housing is important in the city.

      Rob Thomas Perez

      - He has worked as a professional chef.

      - He has lived in SOMA for seven years.

      - Housing is not a right, but there is a necessity for housing.

      - He urged the Commission to pass the Housing Element.

      Tracy Parent

      - She is a realtor in San Francisco.

      - She supports the Housing Element and is glad to see the additions made by Commissioner Antonini and Sue Lee, but she encouraged further additions. She would like to see more explicit wording around the incentives for private developers to include affordable housing ownership units in their private developments for the 80% to 120% median income families. That would free up the public funds to target the low income family needs.

      - The needs assessment of the Housing Element gives very explicit wording around facilitating the permit process for private developers who do include affordable housing.

      Dave Hope

      - He lives in the Sunset District.

      - He supports the Housing Element because it will give him an opportunity to stay in the neighborhood where he grew up.

      Jason Murdock

      - He urged the Commission to adopt the Housing Element.

      - People on the street are not just people of color.

      Ken Chow - Chinatown Community Center

      - There is a housing crisis but if you ask someone the answer will depend on if they have money or not. If someone is rich, they will say that there is no housing crisis. If you live on the street, they will say that there is a housing crisis.

      - The City needs affordable housing.

      - The Housing Element needs some clarity related to key policies and objectives emphasizing affordable housing.

      (did not state name)

      - He is the designer of the seismic retrofit that was introduced to City Hall and was unanimously accepted.

      - He requested that the Commission reconsider the maximum height from 35 to 40 feet for quality family housing.

      Libby Benedict

      - She read a paragraph from June's San Francisco Structures which is an offshoot from the San Francisco Business Times.

      John Lundsome

      - He lives in the Richmond District.

      - There is clearly a need for public housing, more subsidies for housing, and better enforcement of regulations regarding single-room occupancy hotels.

      - He is not in support of in-laws in the Sunset District because it will bring an increase in cars and traffic problems.

      Ignacia (did not state last name)

      - She has lived in San Francisco for 18 years.

      - She is worried because the money she receives for assisted living is not enough to pay for all her family's expenses.

      - She has cancer and sometimes she does not have the money to pay for her medicine.

      Guillermina Castellanos

      - She lives in and is representing people who live in SRO hotels.

      - It is incredible to her how people with children can live in tiny rooms.

      - The conditions are terrible yet rents are very high.

      - She hopes that the Commission will pass the Housing Element.

      Jeff Hagen - Francisco Heights Residents Association

      - He thanked the Commission for their comments. They have been right on point and very helpful to the public.

      - Many of the stories while compelling, are not pertinent to the subject at hand.

      - It is important not to lose the character of San Francisco.

      - Seismic stability is very important on all buildings throughout the City. If there were high-density housing in the Marina in 1989, there would have been more casualties.

      Patricia Cornelius

      - Low-income housing is very important.

      Greg Hilton

      - He believes that the Housing Element is illegal because not all of the neighborhoods have been represented.

      - The Housing Element will create a disastrous parking situation.

      - Many of the people who have spoken are below income levels and really need housing.

      - It is important to create affordable housing.

      Teresa Almagen

      - There is a very extreme need to provide affordable housing.

      - It is a priority to provide a place for people to live, not provide a place where a car should be parked.

      - Family housing should be prioritized. People here are not asking for assistance, they are just asking for a decent place to live.

      Flor Ramos

      - She is here to demand accessible and affordable housing for low-income residents.

      - She does not know why companies are investing money for the construction of expensive and luxury apartments.

      - Everyone here will continue to come here and talk until there are positive results.

      June Jan

      - She was born and raised in San Francisco and now cannot afford to live in the City.

      - Ethnic communities are important and should be considered.

      - She hopes that the Housing Element is passed.

      Angel Martinez

      - It is unfortunate that people are living out in the streets. These people should be given the opportunity to have access to affordable housing.

      - The Commission can help society and help make this a better place.

      Desire Martinez

      - People are here to work and should be allowed to live in affordable housing.

      - There needs to be first-source hiring.

      - She urges the Commission to look at this document and enforce it.

      Mary Lou Lascari

      - Do we need this Housing Element? Yes, we do.

      - The parts that don't serve people are the parts that she objects to.

      - Affordable and decent housing is what everyone wants.

      - She is concerned with the transit corridors mentioned in the Housing Element.

      Dorcas Moureen Bender

      - It is heartbreaking to know how many people are living in terrible conditions.

      - Families should be kept here.

      - There is a crisis in density right now.

      - Single-family neighborhoods are important to preserve.

      - She hopes that when the rest of the Commissioner's comments are put out, that at least two weeks are provided for the public to read the comments.

      Alice Picas

      - Housing is important for the very poor, and the Housing Element draft does not provide for that.

      - There should be a more realistic plan.

      Hector Alvarez

      - He is a member of the Carpenter's Union.

      - He supports the Housing Element and the basic parts of it.

      - There is some fine-tuning that still needs to be done.

      - The Carpenter's Union is very supportive of this.

      Larry Davis

      - He lives in an SRO Hotel.

      - He hopes that the Commission will approve this Housing Element.

      Araceli Lara

      - She hopes that at the end, the Commission will help provide for the very poor.

      - Families suffer a lot because they are living in terrible conditions.

      Mitchel Giavanini

      - He was born in San Francisco but had to move away.

      - He is now back in the Bay Area and sees that there is an increase in homelessness here.

      Shawn Williams

      - He lives in an SRO hotel.

      - He has two children and they cannot visit him because his room is 10x10 and not very good for three people to be there.

      - The living conditions are very bad right now for low-income people.

      - This Housing Element should be passed.

      Richard Warner

      - He would like to thank the Commissioners who provided their comments on this Housing Element.

      - He has been here a couple of hours and has heard that the needed income to live in San Francisco is $37.00.

      - He just rented an apartment last week.

      - It is important to take time on this and find out what exactly neighborhoods want and allow housing to be built without affecting the beauty of the San Francisco neighborhoods.

      Jay Bradshaw

      - His issues are the quality of construction for affordable housing.

      - Decent jobs are very important.

      - He is concerned about the Comments of Commissioner Antonini

      - If jobs are created, that they be good jobs; if housing is built, let it be built right.

      Jerry Langordia

      - He is concerned about affordable housing in the city.

      - We should have polices that encourage suitable rental housing and emphasize affordable rental units.

      - Existing housing should be maintained in a safe and sanitary environment.

      Marty Borrego

      - He has lived in San Francisco most of his life.

      - There is a need for affordable housing for low-income residents and students.

      Marie Gomez

      - She lives in an SRO hotel.

      - She is a long time resident of San Francisco and really loves this city.

      - She is grateful to have housing like this.

      - In every market rate building there should be an equal amount of low-income housing built.

      Bill Murphy

      - He lives in an SRO hotel and is a third generation San Franciscan.

      - He urges the Commission to approve this Housing Element to help out all the low-income residents.

      Joe Shipman

      - He has suffered a lot because of shabby [living] conditions.

      - Every trade has been in this hearing room.

      - The Carpenter's union provides apprentices.

      - He supports this Housing Element.

      Alexandra Hernandez

      - She is here to urge the Commission to adopt the Housing Element.

      - This Housing Element will protect working class families from being displaced in the future.

      - She would like to suggest an amendment that would provide zoning amendments in areas of the city.

      Carlos Zintella - Mission Housing

      - He thanked the Commission for the opportunity to address this very important issue regarding housing.

      - He has lived in the Mission district for the past 13 years and has never seen rent as high since he moved into the area in the early 60's.

      - Affordable housing is important for people who are on a fixed income.

      - He hopes that the commission understands the issues being exposed today and fill the need for housing.

      William Craig

      - He is a veteran.

      - He is homeless presently and stays at a shelter.

      - There are a lot of people who live in similar situations.

      - He has a right to live in a decent place.

      - This plan should have been passed a year ago.

      Monica Losa

      - She has lived in the Mission District for 49 years.

      - She suggested that the Commission take the time to visit some of the SRO hotels.

      Monica Losano

      - She is a low income resident and requires affordable housing.

      - Living in a very limited space without privacy is not healthy for anyone and less for children who are the future of this country.

      - She is here to urge the Commission to adopt the Housing Element.

      Margarita Mendoza

      - She has lived in the Mission for about five years.

      - Affordable housing is a topic that is very important and should be addressed.

      - The residents asking for affordable housing today are not asking for something special, they are just asking for housing that they deserve.

      Arai Ruiz

      - Affordable housing is a big need for low-income residents.

      Marilyn Amini

      - In the Housing Element there are two distinct issues.

      - There is a need for safe and sanitary housing. The City needs to maintain the affordable housing that there is already.

      - The Commission could lobby for safe conditions for people who are in these conditions today.

      - There is a need for subsidized units.

      Berta Bautista

      - Her and her husband live in a studio with their three children.

      - The place is very small and cockroaches and mice invade it.

      - She would like to provide for a better living situation but with their income, they cannot afford an apartment with two bedrooms.

      Rachel Garcia

      - She supports the words that everyone has mentioned.

      - Her husband works as a day laborer and does not have a fixed income. She works part time.

      - They both have worked hard to provide a decent living for their children.

      - They live in a studio but the conditions are terrible.

      - She urges the Commission to look closely at all the issues stated today.

      Charles Sciammas

      - He lives in the Mission District.

      - People pay too much for rent and many live in overcrowded apartments.

      - He urges the Commission to adopt the Housing Element and also to prioritize affordable housing.

      Maria Zuniga

      - She is here to support the organizations that build affordable housing.

      - She thanked the Commission in advance for helping low income residents.

      Jaime L. Collins

      - Housing is on the table and it needs to be approved fast.

      Jose Morales

      - This problem of affordable housing is very important.

      - Many people have been suffering because they cannot live in decent housing.

      - Affordable housing is important for senior citizens.

      Tony Graine

      - He is a member of Homes Note Jails.

      - He has not had the time to read the Housing Element in detail.

      - It is not right when families have to live in indecent housing units.

      - He demands that every housing that goes up is controlled.

      Luis Granados

      - Although the Housing Element is an inch thick, it is a very "timid" document.

      - It does not address the needs of working class families wanting to own a home.

      - It is important to talk about low-income home ownership.

      - He urges this amendment to the document and to adopt it.

      Miriam Munoz

      - She is here representing St. Peter's Housing Committee.

      - The rents are so high that many people cannot pay for rent and bills.

      - It is human to claim their rights.

      - There is no need for people to live on the street to show that something can be done.

      Miriam Zamora

      - Everyone has been speaking about low incomes, percentages of living and many calamites of the people who live in San Francisco.

      - Development of an individual is the victory of a country.

      - The rent could be frozen at 30% of the salary of an individual.

      Susan Marsh

      - She lives in an SRO hotel.

      - These hotels are simply no good.

      - She asks that the Commission approve the Housing Element.

      Arnold Townsend

      - He encouraged the Commission to approve the Housing Element.

      - More affordable housing is very important.

      - It is important to build affordable, for sale housing.

      Pat Christensen

      - The merchants she has spoken to are concerned about transit corridors.

      - She would like to have a definition of what a transit corridor is.

      - The Housing Element should be written in a more realistic way.

      Rosalin Orchid

      - She has lived in a "shoe box" for many years.

      - She believes that what is happening here is very highly admonished.

      Leslie Leonhardt - Union Street Merchants Association

      - She wonders what a transit corridor is also.

      - The increased density will make it difficult to breathe in the City.

      - There is also the threat of loosing the tourists.

      - Cars are not going to go away.

      - She is very impressed at what she heard here, especially about affordable housing.

      Eric Quezada - Mission Anti-Displacement Coalition

      - This document has been in existence for the past 10 years, yet no one ever read it.

      - He would like to bring to life what type of conditions people are living. In.

      - The question now is what the Commission will do with all the statements that were heard today.

      - This document is a living document. It is very important to participate in this process.

      - Until this process is over, he will be opposing projects regardless of their merits. This process needs to move forward.

      Broad Souza

      - He is here to take this opportunity to ask the Commission to approve the Housing Element.

      Amparo Garcia

      - Her apartment is too crowded.

      - She urges the Commission to approve housing for seniors.

      Cris Durazo - South of Market Community Action Network.

      - Although SOMA is rich with new housing, most of them are lofts and luxury apartments.

      - Policies are made to make sure that things are fair.

      - It is important that the Commission show their support and have these policies approved.

      Ada Chan - Mission Anti-Displacement Coalition

      - People are not disposable. They should not be kicked across the bridge when they can no longer afford to live in San Francisco.

      - There were some questions regarding inclusionary housing. It is possible to have more than the token 12% that we currently have. Developers will build and can make money.

      - It is important to have stronger affordability language in relation to the Housing Element. She realizes that there is some debate on this and that the Commissioners have different opinions on this.

      - She urged the Commission to close public comment because this is the second round of hearings.

      - She also urged the Commission to adopt the Housing Element.

      Cris Selig - Mission Anti-Displacement Coalition

      - She is part of a recently formed group called the Coalition to Amend and Adopt the Housing Element.

      - Specifically, the current draft is deficient in the following areas: 1) lack of clarity; 2) failure to address sufficient details on policies and objectives; 3) failure to address the relationship between employment opportunities, income generation and affordable housing; 4) failure to discuss policies and objectives enhancing home ownership opportunities for lower income San Franciscans; and 5) failure to ensure sufficient neighborhood protections and compatibility of new market rate housing.

      Delfine Brody

      - She lives in an SRO hotel.

      - She understands that the Housing Element has been on hold for 18 months.

      - She urges the Commission to accept the amendments from the Mission Anti-Displacement Coalition.

      Shawn Leonard

      - She is an organizer with the Northern California Carpenter's Regional Council.

      - There has been endless testimony today about how the lack of affordable housing is impacting the diversity of the neighborhoods in San Francisco and the integrity of the family unit.

      - The Carpenter's are not opposed to building, but they should be built with quality construction.

      - The people in the low income neighborhoods should be allowed to receive decent wages.

      - She urged the Commission to implement plans and policies to allow the residents of San Francisco to have affordable housing made with quality construction and to have union jobs.

      - She supports the Housing Element but it just needs to be amended.

    ACTION: Hearing to receive public comment only. No action required today.

PUBLIC COMMENT

At this time, members of the public may address the Commission on items of interest to the public that are within the subject matter jurisdiction of the Commission except agenda items. With respect to agenda items, your opportunity to address the Commission will be afforded when the item is reached in the meeting with one exception. When the agenda item has already been reviewed in a public hearing at which members of the public were allowed to testify and the Commission has closed the public hearing, your opportunity to address the Commission must be exercised during the Public Comment portion of the Calendar. Each member of the public may address the Commission for up to three minutes.

The Brown Act forbids a commission from taking action or discussing any item not appearing on the posted agenda, including those items raised at public comment. In response to public comment, the commission is limited to:

(1) Responding to statements made or questions posed by members of the public; or

(2) Requesting staff to report back on a matter at a subsequent meeting; or

(3) Directing staff to place the item on a future agenda. (Government Code Section 54954.2(a))

      None

Adjournment: 8:48 p.m.

THESE MINUTES ARE PROPOSED FOR ADOPTION AT THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION ON THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 2003.

SPEAKERS: None

ACTION: Approved

AYES: Antonini, Bradford Bell, Boyd, Feldstein, Hughes, S. Lee, W. Lee

Last updated: 11/17/2009 10:00:06 PM